Hindsight

[lydy]

So, imagine that you had a Bohemian, libidinous past. In your early twenties, you meet a wonderful man, marry, have three kids, and return to the religion in which you were raised. Possibly, this change to a conservative lifestyle is at least partly a response to finding your previous rebellious lifestyle unsatisfactory. Many years later, an old flame calls. To complicate matters, she's a, well, she, and so is twice a sin, once as a pre-marital affair, and twice as a same-sex relationship. Even if, or perhaps especially if, you have feelings about her, it is an uncomfortable situation. Another ten or so years go by, your life has become infinitely more complicated, and the affection you felt for her is even older and more faded, the church more conservative, and the taboo against same-sex relationships strongly reinforced -- and she tries to make contact, again. Frankly, this isn't the sort of conversation you really want to have, at the moment. Or ever. The absolute best it can be is painful, and the worst is, well, pretty unimaginably horrible.

No, I don't think I'll write a letter, or send email, or anything else. I hadn't thought of things from her side. I most emphatically hadn't thought of myself as an old regret. I forgot that that was the way it works. I mean, sure, now I'm a sin, I can dig that. But I'd forgotten that the whole repentance thing would reach backwards. I'd been thinking of conversion as, like, a new beginning. It's not, though, and I should have remembered that. I'm probably as welcome as a bull in a China shop. You know, it's embarrassing to not have thought of all of this, before. Even without some of the more tragic underpinnings, I should have been more careful. Boy, ain't hindsight something?

Comments

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

So, imagine that you had a Bohemian, libidinous past.

OK, that's a stretch, but I'll try.

K.

[jiawen]

Did you know about her marriage, kids and religion? Did you ask her to jump your bones or to go for coffee? You may not be as guilty as you think.

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

The conversation couldn't possibly be a new beginning, especially as you're reaching out to her after all this time.

Time flows only one direction.

[timprov.livejournal.com]

It was good of you to give her the chance to overcome that. But yes, having done so, it's probably a bad idea to keep poking at it.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I knew the second time, not the first. Don't misunderstand, though. I don't feel guilty about either time. I just feel stupid for having been unprepared, and for not tailoring my attempt to contact to her with that information in mind. I don't know what I would have done differently, but I just hadn't thought of it from her point of view, and I really should have made more of an effort. It wouldn't have affected the final outcome, I think, but I could have been more graceful, and I might have caused less hurt, if I caused hurt, which of course, I don't know. It's not guilt, it's just annoyance at having failed to use my brain and my resources. All this time, I'm worried that she's worried about her husband, completely forgetting the whole moral aspect of the thing. Me, a preacher's kid! I mean, that's really pretty amazing. It's nice to have been away from religion this long, but I should have at least wondered what role her religion might be playing in all of this.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Uh, conversion, not conversation. One of those weird things that Christians do. :-)

And actually, this may be another example of not remembering to look at Anga's point of view. Jew's don't do conversion, as a rule. And I bet, when you do, it doesn't require that you change how you look at your past, unlike a conversion to serious Christianity.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Overcome is the wrong word, surely. She made her choices, for whatever reasons she made them. She's not been cruel to me. She's been as polite as she can manage, under the circumstances. Me, I'd be happier if she'd chosen a more liberal form of Catholicism, but it's not exactly my life, ne? You know, it was a long time ago, in another country, and the wench is dead -- um, maybe that aphorism is a little too apropo. Um, how about, I was in another country, she told me she was eighteen, and I don't even own a saddle? No, maybe not that one, either.

You gotta remember, I've been dealing with narrow-minded fundamentalist Christians all my life. They can certainly be offensive, but this isn't an example. I'm used to much, much worse, and from blood kin, at that.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Heh.

[von-krag.livejournal.com]

I know what many fundi Christians call "Sin" but most of that just seams to my eyes as social control, misogyny or building a priest as moral arbiter.

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

And actually, this may be another example of not remembering to look at Anga's point of view. Jew's don't do conversion, as a rule. And I bet, when you do, it doesn't require that you change how you look at your past, unlike a conversion to serious Christianity.

How you look at your past, or how you feel about your past? This is a very tangled topic. And I don't know what the scope of "conversion" covers. Some people convert to Judiasm; others who are Jewish become Orthodox or return to Orthodoxy. Any of these cases will certainly lead to reconsideration of the past.

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

Snort.

I bet I still have an email from you to me that boggles my mind, years later... and for that matters, touches on you, me, and Lydy.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I bet I still have an email from you to me that boggles my mind, years later... and for that matters, touches on you, me, and Lydy.

September, 1996?

K.

[timprov.livejournal.com]

I'm sticking with "overcome." I'm glad that you gave her a chance to make people more important than theology. It's too bad she hasn't taken that chance, but as long as there was some chance that she would, offering it is a good thing.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Do I want to know?

[lydy.livejournal.com]

And your point is?

I was contemplating issues of communication, not making judgments about people's faiths. If you have a friend who is, say, a gun nut who passionately defends the Second Amendment any time the conversation veers within a light year of the topic of guns, then you take that into account when you talk to them. There are topics you don't bring up unless you want the full-blown, song and dance, in four part harmony, anti-gun control massacre and the right to bare arms. You have to keep this in mind if you want to have a conversation that doesn't revolve around the Second Amendment, and a body might actually want to do that, you know?

Failing to take into consideration someone's religious beliefs when trying to communicate with them is just plain old stupid. It doesn't matter how wrong-headed the beliefs are, unless you want to fight about religion, which is often fun bu rarely productive. I didn't want to argue religion, I just wanted to talk to an old lover. I wish I'd taken a little better cared of how I approached it, is all.

[von-krag.livejournal.com]

Your 100% right, I'm sorry I didn't do a better job of communicating with you. What I'm trying to say is her fear of past "Sin" and falling back into that type of "Sin" might be the problem. For some reason I miss; fear, uncertainty and doubt come into play a lot when trying to talk with past people of importance to you when very significant moral and ethical changes happen.

[jiawen]

Yes, it probably would've been best had you taken all that into account. I feel that kind of thing all the time -- "Why didn't I realize that X would Y if I Z'd?" To some extent, though, the only thing you can do is learn from it and try not to do it again later.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, thinking of things from the other person's POV is generally a good thing. But it can be hard to do at all, and if the other person's POV is wildly different from one's own, it gets pretty tricky. And one can never be sure that one is accurate in reading the other's POV, etc., etc., blah, blah.

You remembered to do it in time to prevent breaking any china. Give yourself credit.

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

There are some things man is not meant to know; it may be different for women.

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

Actually, we do -- it's just that the rules are different. And for at least many converts, it sure does change how they look at the past, often in ways more than verging on impiety. (I can recall one who was of the strong opinion that her birth to a non-Jewish family was ample evidence that God wasn't infallible; he'd screwed up, and she had to fix things.)

[lydy.livejournal.com]

As I understand it, when someone is converted to Catholicism, the baptism wipes away all past sins. However, they remain sins. It's a completely different way of evaluating one's past. What had once been a lark, or a passionate affair, or, well, mostly anything, becomes a sin which one would repent for, if it weren't for the fact that the baptism has taken away the need for it. You don't look back and think, "Yeah, that was then, this is now." You look back with a dollop of Catholic guilt. At least, this is how I understand that it works for conservative Catholics. I'd be pleased to be corrected by someone with better knowledge than mine.

On the other hand, conversion to Judaism is just plain different, again, if I understand things correctly. Jews aren't subject to original sin, nor confession, nor the threat of damnation. These all make a conversion a psychologically different space.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

You remembered to do it in time to prevent breaking any china. Give yourself credit.

Actually, I'm not so sure of that. With the amount of information I have, it's kinda difficult to tell. I can easily imagine people who would have found that email to be a source of great pain and regret. I'm not feeling guilty about this, by the way. I'm just noting that it is a possibility.

This is, to some extent, just a slap on the forehead, and a "How could I have been so stupid!" sort of thing. I mean, I grew up in a church that has a number of similarities. That I failed to take religion into account is just amazing. Like failing to take into account that your friend lives in Texas when you start to dis Texas, you know?

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

Very likely. The one where you explained how a casual comment I'd made to Lydy reached your ears. I can't seem to find a copy...

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

No original sin, no confession, and no damnation. On the other hand, given Jewish mothers, who needs damanation? :-)

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure. It is a totally different thing, even those issues aside. The primary thing about Christian conversion is one's (at least putative) relationship with God; the primary thing about Jewish conversion is one's relationship with the tribe. Conversion to Judaism is more like joining the Elks Club than it is like Christian conversion.