Violations and Ruminations

[lydy]

Most of Minicon this year was grand fun. As the Chair of the Code of Conduct Committee, I had several things that I had to deal with, and learned several really useful things. I also ended up saying "giant inflatable penis" more times than any person should have to. But that's not what I want to talk about.

The Consuite at Minicon is comprised of some interconnected rooms. This year, they took all the beds out, and the rooms had either comfy furniture to sit in, or tables with food and drink. I'm using consuite a little loosely, since I'm including the bar area. The Dead Dog Party was held, as is traditional, in the consuite. Somewhere fairly early in the evening, Ann talked to me about a problem with Ken Konkol. Ken's been known to be a problem for, oh, forty years, in a variety of ways. His most recent exploit was being arrested for refusing to vacate an hotel room in Florida. That was last November. This is not a man who has learned better. According to Ann, who had spoken to another long-time Mnstfer, Ken had showed up assuming that he would be allowed to stay in this other person's house. This other person has had a bad experience with Ken overstaying his welcome, and refused. On Sunday, once again, Ken insisted that of course he was going to stay at this friend's house, since he had no place to go. Ann offered to explain to Ken in no uncertain terms that this was not going to happen, since the other person felt like he was not getting through. Ann did so, at which point Ken asked to stay in the consuite.

Now, staying overnight in the consuite is a thing which happens from time to time. It is the prerogative of the hosts, the people running the consuite and bar, and it is assumed that they will use good judgment, which they always do. The people running consuite and bar often end up sleeping in those rooms, as well, since their job is never-ending, and it's useful to have as short a commute as possible. Ann told Ken no, and in no uncertain terms. She had concerns about the fact that there was evidently a charge against him for trashing an hotel room, possibly related to his arrest, and generally didn't feel that his lack of planning constituted a reasonable emergency on the part of the con.

I wanted to talk to Ken up front, make him say what his plans for vacating were, and make him stick to them. I thought that a proactive approach was more likely to circumvent his extremely probable tactic of just hanging around until they closed the suite, probably around four or five in the morning, and then pleading that he couldn't go because he had no place to go and no way to get there. A plea that looks especially good because he's using a walker these days and really does look frail. I thought to do this under the guise of being helpful. "Do you need help calling a cab?" sort of deal. I was assured that Joel had it all under control, and decided that I could just stand down. A while later, I noticed that Ken was no longer in evidence, assumed that it had all blown over, and stopped worrying.

Around three in the morning, my sweetie Ctein and I ended up in one of the smaller rooms with a couch, talking, like we do. As these things will, late at night, we ended up having a two hour, wide ranging, very private conversation. There was no one in the room, the crowd was quite thin, we weren't using space other people needed. When someone wandered in to use the rest room or see if someone they wanted to talk to was there, we suspended the really personal stuff. In case you haven't done the convention thing, this is actually a pretty normal interaction. People are always wandering off to slightly secluded spots to talk, neck, or what have you. Somewhere around five in the morning, Joel informed us that he was going to bed and they were closing up the rooms. Ctein and I left, feeling a bit smug about having closed down the convention.

Monday was the traditional "fish fest", a sushi lunch at Sakura, followed by the less venerated but still very traditional ice cream trip to Pump House Creamery. I had much good sushi, a beer, and was feeling utterly charitable with the entire world. And then I got a call. From Ann. She said that Ken Konkol had decided to hide in the closet of the room where Ctein and I were talking so as to avoid getting thrown out. For the entire time we had been talking, sometimes about quite personal information, he was in the closet. When he was found, he had made a little nest of pillows and blankets and was reading. Joel had thought to look in the closet because he hadn't seen Ken leave, and figured he must be there somewhere. I told Ann I had to hang up, I felt sick to my stomach. I did not, in fact, throw up, but I was hugely, massively upset. Trying to remember what we had talked about, what other people we had discussed in frank fashion, what confidences had been violated. I was toweringly angry.

When we got to the ice cream place, I pulled Ctein aside, and told him. He went through roughly the same reactions. It felt incredibly violating. It's not a physical violation, but it is still a huge invasion of one's personal space. And it may be a minor thing, but it also destroyed that slightly smug sense of accomplishment about having closed down the con. After a very brief discussion, we went and told _everybody_. Loudly. And everyone had the same sorts of reactions we did. They were appalled and horrified, and sympathetic. It was so very nice to have all my friends be so very much on my side. It felt validating and helped keep me from spinning out of control. Ctein reports the same thing.

That night was the Desiccated Dodo Party at Scott's. This is also a Minicon tradition. I walked in the door, and there was Ken. I took a deep breath and decided that I did not wish to make a scene. While it felt awful to be in the same room with him, I didn't want to export the damage to my friends. I quick texted Ctein to warn him, and then proceeded to ignore Ken. I socialized cheerfully with my friends and told anyone who hadn't heard yet about what had happened the previous night. Everyone was appalled and sympathetic. I got into a couple of games of Zar, and had a quite good time, although I did cuss in front of the teenager. Which he thought was funny, and his mother didn't seem to be too upset with. Something about Zar makes me say terrible things. In between the first and the second game, Cally said that she overheard Ken say that he was disappointed that he hadn't gotten to play a game with several people yet, and my name was on the list. I was...gobsmacked, I guess. It sounds bad, but you should know that I have never, not once in all my life, shared a game with Ken. The expectation that he could game with me? I am flabbergasted. What is it about abusers that makes them want to continue to contact their victims, get closer to them? What is it?

Zar over, I was in the kitchen. Laura, Dean, DDB, Ctein, Doug, Scott, and probably other people were there. I don't really remember. Ken came to the kitchen door, and I lost my temper. I don't think he was speaking to me, but I said, "Go away and never speak to me again." He _advanced_. He walked towards me. He said that he was just here to thank our gracious hostess, and pointed to Laura. Someone replied that Laura was not, in fact the hostess. I told him go get out of my face. He asked me why. I yelled that I didn't need to explain, he needed to leave me the fuck alone. He insisted that I did need to explain. And he kept on _advancing_. By this time, I have completely lost my shit. I'm screaming at the top of my lungs, and I'm pretty sure that the majority of the words were fuck, and the rest involved telling him to go away. Eventually, he was made to leave. I really don't remember that part too well. I did see Ctein visibly restrain himself, and I'm grateful. Actually breaking Ken's fingers, or whatever else seemed appropriate, would have been difficult to explain to the police. Ann Totusek stood in the doorway to prevent him from coming in. I burst into tears and cried on Dean's shoulder. It was the closest one, I think.

Because the context was well known, everyone was instantly on my side. There was no recrimination at all, only sympathy. Everyone understood why I had lost it, and was completely sympathetic. It helps, of course, that pretty much no one likes Ken. But I think a much more important piece of it was that the abuse of the previous night was known and understood, and so my behavior had context.

There followed a discussion in which I, hilariously, provided technical advice about how to make Ken go away. It was decided that asking the host of the party to remove Ken was the correct procedure to follow. This is in exact compliance with our current anti-harassment policy. Scott, as host, asked for time to consult with Irene, his wife and co-host. That took very little time, but I don't think Irene knew the context and absolutely she needed to be consulted. Also in accordance with our policy, the hosts asked a Board member, in this case Ann, to actually do the evicting. Which she did. And for which I was so very grateful. There was some talk about further bans of various natures, a one year ban from Minicon, maybe a longer one. Ctein brought up the issue that in smaller venues, such as Fallcon, he would not be comfortable with Ken there and there would be a good chance of unpleasant drama if they had to interact. I pointed out that Mnstf meetings are pretty damn small, as well. I pointed out that all of this is stuff that has to be handled at the Board level, that we didn't have a quorum of Board members, and even if we did, I wasn't really ready to deal with all this shit, even as a complainant. As the victim, I cannot actually vote on the outcome, but I can advocate for myself when the time comes. But the time was not now, and what with Ken living out of town, there wasn't any reason to do anything before the next scheduled Board meeting.

Tuesday, I got a call from Ann. Evidently, Ken reached out to Ann and wanted to make things right. He's going to see a counselor through the VA and she was talking about wanting to provide the counselor with properly anonymized information so that he can discuss it with Ken, and I lost my temper. Because really, Ken is not my problem and what I really want is for him to die in a fire, right now. It's been less than 24 hours. And I am frothingly angry, still damaged, and trying to involve me in his rehabilitation is just not on. I have no charitable feelings towards him, and should not be asked to. Ann also said something about wanting to be sure that Mnstf wasn't perceived as an organization that just casually bans people who one of the Board members do not like, and I agree that we don't want to do that, but I cannot cannot cannot talk about this right now. And I am still upset that she tried to do so. I know that she had good intentions. But framing Ken's rehab as a good thing for me makes no sense at all. It does absolutely nothing for me. And right now, if Ken wants to apologize to me, I am not having any, will not listen, and if he calls me I will scream at him until he hangs up the phone. Not having any. Which is, you understand, why I don't get to vote on the issue of what Mnstf should do to Ken. Because genuinely not judicial, here.

Comments

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Casually? CASUALLY? She thinks this might qualify as banning people casually? Where is the link to the song full of no's I sent you? I NEED SOME MORE NO. THE AMOUNT OF NO I HAVE IS INSUFFICIENT HERE.

Your behavior has in no way invited this. And really, therapy is great. Therapy is amazing. Therapy has done all sorts of wonderful things for all sorts of people. But if you ask a good therapist to guarantee that someone will stop being abusive and antisocial within N sessions, they can't do it. It doesn't work that way. Ken Konkol's therapy needs to be so that he is a better person and doesn't do this in future social groups, not as a quick and easy fix for having shat in the town cistern with Minn-StF. Therapy is not the base you can run and touch and be free to continue playing.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I, myself, am uncertain what a sufficiency of noes would look like.

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

You might also consider locking down this post a bit more- while you're the victim here, and certainly entitled to talk about your direct experiences, you're also discussing other situations involving other people that were reported that aren't currently public, and you're a Board member. Ceasar's wife and all that. Blech.

[lsanderson.livejournal.com]

I agree with ann_totusek.

[casacorona.livejournal.com]

Lydy, I am horrified that this happened to you. I can easily imagine how you feel, and I think you are being remarkably reasonable in response.

[ckd]

Definitely the NOPE train to NOPE NOPE NOPE station.

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

A 420 train to Indica station would be much more pleasant.

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

Oh- Lydy, the fact that Louie targeted you, and Ken chose to act like a douchebag with regard to you does NOT reflect on you at all, nor does it reflect upon the Board. You've wisely recused yourself from voting, and are advocating for yourself. There is nothing remotely questionable about your behaviors here. Their behavior problems are their own, and I don't think anyone thinks you are remotely responsible for what happened to you. If they do, they're an idiot.

[skzbrust.livejournal.com]

+ 1000 on this one. Well said, Ann.

[dreamshark.livejournal.com]

Ken is awful, has no concept of acceptable social boundaries and apparently no interest in learning them. But if it makes you feel any better, he is quite hard of hearing and probably couldn't even hear most of your conversation. He is also massively uninterested in other people, so even if he could hear you he probably wasn't paying much attention.

Sometimes he pretends to be more of a bonehead than he actually is so that he can claim that nothing he does is his fault. But it actually seems plausible to me that he didn't understand what you were upset about. He hid in the closet so he could crash in the consuite, which I'm sure he realized was wrong, but why should YOU be yelling at him for that? He may or may not have been listening to your conversation, and if he was listening he might not even known who it was. So his "what did I do?" act may have been genuine. People are always angry with Ken, and sometimes he loses track of just who is mad at him for what. In some ways that makes it even MORE creepy (it's like dealing with a social zombie). But it's not entirely unreasonable for him to ask.

I think if anybody wants to pursue banning Ken from Minicon, it should be over the specific and obvious offense of hiding in the closet after being told that he could not crash in the consuite. Accusing him of deliberately eavesdropping would just turn into a long and unpleasant confrontation that would prove nothing. Hiding in the closet is creepy because it COULD lead to eavesdropping (or voyeurism). But there is no way to prove that he was actually listening to you. And I think that there is an excellent chance that he wasn't. It would seriously pain me to have to side with Ken in an argument, so I propose that we not go there.

[laurel]

FWIW, from what little I know of Ken from observing him over the years, Sharon's take on whether he heard or paid attention to the conversation seems accurate. I'm in no way excusing his behavior, but figure this might make Lydy and Ctein feel some consolation that their conversation won't be repeated to others (and may very well not have been heard in the first place).

I've also observed the behavior mentioned in her second paragraph. And agree with the third.

[redmorlock.livejournal.com]

There's one very simple issue: he hid in a closet to stay in a convention space that he had not been given permission to occupy. He was either preparing to commit legal trespass or actually committing legal trespass. That's reason enough for every convention that knows his name to ban him. Obviously, I'm no lawyer, so I could be wrong, but a quick conversation with any of fandom's lawyers ought to clarify that.

The slightly more complicated issue is whether he meant to be an eavesdropping creep, and the answer there is it doesn't matter. He didn't tell anyone he was hiding under circumstances where others might reasonably expect privacy. That's legally a bit murky as grounds to ban someone, but it's perfectly fine for saying Dear Fucking God, what a horrible thing to do.

You have all my sympathy. And outrage as well.

[dreamshark.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks.

[faunhaert.livejournal.com]

removing the beds from the consulate
is a strong indication of no sleeping here

do you see a bed?
no
go get a room.

he's been doing that as long as i remember him.
think a ban would be fine.

a therapist worth their salt
would say its time you leave that person alone.
your lesson is to respect other peoples boundaries in this case.

so he's just using therapy as an excuse
to blow thru boundaries .
his game how many people can i piss off.
sadly i don't think he really knows what he's doing
he's too cheap to get a room
and he's worn out the welcome of friends.

sorry it wrecked your con

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

This is not acceptable behavior under any circumstance, and while I cannot speak for the entire board of another local convention, I can say that at least one member agrees with redmorlock that this comprises legal trespass, as well as being incredibly shitty and unethical.

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear Folks,

As the other victim in this situation, I would very much like for this post to remain public and NOT be locked down.

It's important to me, MNSTF-culturally, socially, personally, and psychologically.

I can explain why, at length, if that's needed.

To borrow from Marion Zimmer Bradley, I do not need to say anything here that I would not be OK with having read into a court record.

I'll write more (much more, you may be assured) but I am pretty much on exactly the same page as Lydy. Shared experience, similar reactions to it, etc. We are not going to be speaking for each other, but it's going to be a pretty safe bet that whatever she says, I'd very likely echo with a "Oh hell, yeah."

So, although you may only hear one voice, assume two, unless I say otherwise. Which is unlikely.

More later.

pax / Ctein

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear Me,

I misunderstood the import of Ann's comment.

Seeing as this is an unlocked post, we all need be careful about invoking other people in the discussion unless you know they're willing to be invoked.

IOW, be mindful that we ARE talking in public.

pax / Ctein

[carbonel]

In between the first and the second game, Cally said that she overheard Ken say that he was disappointed that he hadn't gotten to play a game with several people yet, and my name was on the list.

Slight correction: Unless there were two such incidents, that was me, not Cally, and it happened before the first game -- which I know because it happened before my own blowup (detailed below). The fact that it was me and not Cally makes it more ironic in my opinion, because I have long-time issues with Ken that he is (or at least acts) totally oblivious to.

This seems the right place to talk about another part of the evening. That was where Ken camped out on the (at that point) one available table and said "I was here first" with a "just try to eject me" attitude and claimed he was about to play a game with three named people -- one of whom had just agreed to play a different game with Lydy, me and others. Given current circumstances, I didn't believe him, but subsequent events show he had in fact acquired the other two as willing players.

In retrospect, I did not behave in an ideal manner by my lights, since connecting his current hogging-the-table behavior to his previous bad actions shouldn't have been a thing. However, it was a last-or-past straw. I told him in no uncertain terms what I thought of him (the phrase "a shit" figured prominently) and that I never wanted to have anything to do with him ever again -- at which point I requested Scott (as host) to mediate the immediate table issue. Another table was cleared (thanks to the non-gamers who vacated the ducky table), and life proceeded apace.

Given Ken's hearing loss, the noise in the place, and the fact that my voice is on the quiet side, I have no idea if he actually processed anything I said -- but I'll be happy to repeat it again at volume if the occasion arises again.

And yes, I understand that this is a public post and I am okay with that.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I don't know why I had that in my head as Cally. Weird. Sorry.

Thank you for your additional information and clarification.

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear folks,

Going a bit meta- here…

I'm sensing an undercurrent in some of the posts, which I'm sure is entirely unconscious, that Lydy will be the complainant here and that I am sort of an accompaniment. It's just the feeling I'm getting, but I think it's throwing the conversation a little off course.

That is not and will not be the case. I am a separate and equal Primary complaint. I will be writing a formal letter to the board. Although Lydy and I share the experience and mostly (if not entirely) share the emotions and reactions to it, we aren't actually speaking as one. We are just going to mostly entirely agree with what the other says.

Please keep that in mind in the course of discussion.

(And, no, don't worry, I wasn't feeling the least bit dismissed or diminished in all of this. I know that's not happening.)


pax \ Ctein
[ Please excuse any word-salad. MacSpeech in training! ]
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-- Ctein's Online Gallery http://ctein.com
-- Digital Restorations http://photo-repair.com
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[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear Folks,

In later posts, I shall refer to this as the Warm and Fuzzy Post.

I need to write this post first, because I need to write a bunch of others that involve clear and critical thinking and writing, which I am very good at, but which will also be pretty emotionless in content. I'm going to be disagreeing with some of you and pointing out the process errors and pitfalls that I'm seeing, and I don't want any of you to think that I might be feeling that you are not entirely on my side and utterly supportive of me and Lydy. Even while I'm telling you why I think you are approaching this incorrectly, I know you are there for me.

Here is what it is vitally important that you all know:

I am fairly sure I *am* also speaking for Lydy when I say how utterly grateful and appreciative I am for the way you all rallied around and supported us all of Monday. Lydy and I wanted this talked about and wanted to tell everybody about it because we wanted everyone to know how badly Ken had behaved. We were driven by (legitimate) outbreak. But, in fact, it proved hugely therapeutic. Being victimized like that leaves one anxious and feeling a little frail and a lot less in control of one's life. It's one thing to know in one's head, kind of hypothetically, you were done a serious wrong and that everyone will be on your side.** It's a totally different thing when you all are actually doing it and mirroring our feelings almost as strongly as we are feeling them. It's grounding and it's healing and it's stabilizing and you cannot believe how much it meant to us and how much good it did us.

Before you try to dissemble about this, shut up. I know you can't imagine doing anything else and that of course it's the right thing to do and so you would do that and so on. I get that. That's not the point. The point is that it is fucking hugely appreciated and meaningful.

The way you all have made me feel is that I just want to fall in a heap at your feet and cry and laugh and hug you about the ankles out of complete and total gratitude for what you have done for both of us. Each and every one of you.

And that's the way I'm still going to be feeling about you even when I'm writing my laser-focus critiques.


(**And, no, in fact this doesn't always happen. That adds to the frailty and uncertainty of being a victim, because you don't know, really and truly, if people will be there for you until they are for there for you. I could tell you personal stories. Sometimes there are not Happy Endings.)


I'm going to stop at this point because voice transcription doesn't do well with a broken voice and I'm starting to cry (don't worry––gratitude, not trauma). I'll be back.

pax \ Ctein
[ Please excuse any word-salad. MacSpeech in training! ]
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-- Ctein's Online Gallery http://ctein.com
-- Digital Restorations http://photo-repair.com
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[ctein3.livejournal.com]

goddam voice-o's

that was "legitimate outrage" not "legitimate outbreak."

pax / that guy

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear folks,

As the other Unreliable Witness (ahem) at the DD party, I want to expand on Lydy's description of the confrontation between her and Ken. While Ken was advancing on her and she was becoming increasingly loud and panicky, he was saying things like “What's your problem?” and “What did I ever do to you?” He said other things, but I don't remember them word for word. It's just part of the general picture of Ken being completely uncomprehending of how to deal with other human beings (which goes to the matter of why certain bans are needed).

Lydy has misunderstood one part of the confrontation:

“I did see Ctein visibly restrain himself, and I'm grateful.”

That is not what I was doing. I was planning. I was deciding at what moment I would need to move to disarm Ken, by breaking his left little finger*, and the move to accomplish that most efficiently.

(*and if that didn't do the job, there were more where that came from)

I'm not exaggerating, people. I'm really not.

Ann successfully intervened about five seconds before I was going to move, and I am really grateful to you, Ann, for being able to do that, because dealing with the Mppl police was not how I'd planned to spend my vacation time. And DDB was moving in fast enough from the right rear, that he very possibly would have reached me in time to restrain me (without harming me) before I could harm Ken (DDB moves faster and is better trained than many realize). But possibly not.

In any case, though, Ann and DDB were not part of my decision-making.

Some of you, I know, are thinking, "What? Ctein is talking about dispassionately crippling someone? For real? This doesn't sound anything like the Ctein I know."

You'd be entirely right. That's how bad the situation was, and that's how bad it was for Lydy and me.

pax / Ctein
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-- Ctein's Online Gallery http://ctein.com
-- Digital Restorations http://photo-repair.com
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[lydy.livejournal.com]

One of the things I remember him saying was, "You do so need to provide me an explanation." I also remember him shaking his finger at me in an admonishing fashion.

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

I would be really happy for an email with a note of permission to release it to the Board for consideration in this situation. toad at hauntedfrog dot com

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure you can have what you want, but I'm not sure what you want. Note of permission from whom to do what?

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

Ken has been an obstinately oblivious asshole for forty years that I can personally attest to. I would give Powerball odds against his suddenly changing his behavior now.
I would think a one or two year ban from MNSTF events is not at all out of line.

I had no idea you were anything like “Chair of the Code of Conduct Committee”. Wasn't it Spider Robinson who said God is an iron?

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Yep, it was Spider.

I had, indeed, noted the irony.

[mplspunky.livejournal.com]

I am so furious for you. This should never have happened to you. Minicon is our home. It is where we go to find fun and safety and love and acceptance and not have to deal with the people in the world that want to steal parts of ourselves and make them ugly. I'm so very sorry, Bonus GodMother. I love you very much.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

One of the interesting things about this experience is that the predominant experience is that of love and support. I have wonderful, wonderful friends, and a supportive community. The fact that there are some evil fucks in it, occasionally, is a problem, but it's not the balance. The vast majority of people are marvelous. And this points that up. It also points up just how destructive one person can be, so there's that, too.

Lots of learning for the Chair of the Code of Conduct Committee, eh?

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Yow, I sympathize completely with your feelings of anger and violation. How horrible. I'm glad everyone was able and available to rally round and validate your outrage and sense of betrayal.

[jiawen]

Ken consistently ruins a lot of people's fun. These two things he's done (secretly camping out in consuite, and not backing the fuck off when asked to) go way, ultra far beyond ruining people's fun. I'll say what I've said elsewhere: Mnstf is not a court of law, it shouldn't pretend to legalistic procedures, and it doesn't require a legal standard of proof before taking action. I disagree with any notion of Mnstf trying to get Ken to show (how? in what way could that ever be satisfactory evidence, unless Mnstf pretends to be experts in psychology?) that he's reformed himself. It's not Mnstf's place to judge Ken's soundness of mind.

It is, however, entirely Mnstf's place to decide who's ruining our fun. Mnstf needs to tell Ken to go away and not come back.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Plus one!

[karen anderson (from livejournal.com)]

Never been to Minicon. Don't know Ken. But I have sat on a number of concoms and if any of them had a member who was specifically told he could not sleep overnight in the con suite and proceeded to not only do so, but to do so in such a way that a responsible concom member or hotel employee could not find him, I would request that our board ban the person for several years, if not for life. What if he'd had a heart attack and died in that closet? What if he'd lit a cigarette, fallen asleep, and set the hotel on fire? Even before you get to the eavesdropping situation, this man's behavior was completely unacceptable in terms of endangering the organization.

[(Anonymous)]

Dear Lydy and Ctein,

Hugs to both of you. You both acted with restraint (Ctein you restrained yourself until Ann intervened, that's enough). and Lydy hugs for your strength! I didn't make it to Minicon this year, and haven't been for several prior, but I'll look forward to future ones. Minicon and Mnstf are not ruined. Hugs to both of you for a horrid experience.

Shirley Meier

[asimovberlioz.livejournal.com]

While I can't recall ever having met you, Lydy, you are associated with many people I regard in a friendly manner (Ctein since the '70s, many Minn-Stf people from the part of the '80s when I lived there, Ann from more recent years). And of course I know Ken. Sigh. I agree that Ken WAY overstepped boundaries of decency by trespassing, particularly after he was given explicit instructions to leave. I don't really have anything new to add to the discussion, but please know that I sympathize with you completely.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

We have indeed met. Circa 1985. A Mnstf meeting at Judy Cilcain's. You mortally embarrassed me in front of a room full of strangers, and then proceeded to compliment me on my breasts. It was not your finest hour, but it made an indelible impression. On the bright side, it was embarrassing, but it makes a good story, and didn't engender anything like the amount of fury that the most recent situation did. And, you know, we all grow not only older, but often wiser, or at least more cautious.

[golfflakes.livejournal.com]

Thats fascinating...

[(Anonymous)]

Probably more than I wanted to know about what was going on behind doors of one of my two fav cons. But from my perspective, you are all hitting the proper notes. I'd be inclined to ban him outright. It sounds as if he brings nothing positive to Minicon and has over the years been a growing problem. Now you have an actual legal option to keep him out.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Actually, legality ain't in it. Legally, Mnstf can refuse membership to anyone, provided it's not based on a protected class. We could, for instance, refuse to allow anyone to register for Minicon that cannot name the most recent ten people who won the Hugo for fan writing. The fact that we don't is entirely about what kind of community we wish to foster and maintain, and has nothing at all to do with legality.

The same can be said for dealing with harassment issues. The way we deal with them has everything to do with what we want in our community. One of the key points to understand is that the choices we make affect who will and won't be a part of our community. All choices exclude someone. When we tolerate people who harass other people, we choose the harassers over those who choose not to be in situations where they can be harassed. It is often said that we cannot please everyone, and that is completely true. But that is an argument in favor of dealing with harassment, not against it. Who do you really want at your convention, someone who thinks it's fine for him/her/it to be an asshole anytime they want, or someone who cares about other people but does not choose to put up with assholes? Refusing to act is choosing one set of consequences, acting is choosing another. Unfortunately, the consequences are not entirely foreseeable.

These questions turn out to be incredibly complicated, which is why good process is time-consuming and delicate. There are all sorts of unintended consequences that can happen from action. One of our (the Mnstf Board's) very real concerns is that we have as a core value welcoming people who are not as socially clued as the norm. People who are a-neurotypical, or people who for whatever reason were inadequately socialized, or some other reason I haven't thought of. We wish to remain tolerant of these people, some of them are us, for heaven's sake. So crafting a policy that doesn't scare the bejesus out of someone who knows that they aren't really very good at this whole social interaction thing, while still making it clear that being an asshole will be dealt with turns out to be difficult. The thing is, even people who are very clueless and badly socialized usually care about other people, and can be brought along to the point where they can have successful social interactions with a large percentage of the community.

[carol kennedy (from livejournal.com)]

Well. As a person who has had the experience of ejecting someone from a Minn-stf event, I am very sorry I was not there for support and aid. Not one thing about Ken's behavior in this surprises me, but I am still appalled. Lydy and Ctein, I am sorry this happened to you. To prevent things like it or what he has done in the past happening to anyone else, I support banning him from both Minicon and Minn-stf. If anyone says, "But X has done worse," fuck it, ban X too.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I keep on wanting to say something clever to this, and let the best be the enemy of the good. I have not forgotten, and will never forget, how kind you were to me at the meeting where Louie was so horrible. I had huge amounts of support and aid, but you would certainly have been yet another rock upon which to rest. Thank you.