The Rules, They Are A-Changin'

[lydy]

So, one of the things I think is going on in my community is that younger people, mostly but not entirely women, are coming to the community with a different set of standards of behavior and stronger personal boundaries. And older people, like me, largely but not entirely women, are saying, "Wait, wait! That's an _option_? Cool. Sign me up. I will take a double-order of nope with that tasty, tasty no sauce drizzled all over, thanks."

And this is confusing for some people. While they might have been comfortable with simply treating the newer cohort differently, all of a sudden here are these people they've known for thirty years that want to be treated differently, too. And suddenly they're vocal and insistent. That's gotta feel like somebody changed the rules on them.

Of course, one could also argue that we're just asking that the rules from the 1970s actually be enforced, for a change. I mean, it's only been forty fucking years. Can I have my autonomy, now?

Kthnxbye.

Comments

[naomikritzer]

Oh, yeah. I definitely think this is part of what's going on.

I have heard several older women (by which I mean fifty-ish and up, not geriatric) talking about some of the sexual harassment complaints of the last few years and saying, "wait, so, people care about this stuff now? Enough that they're willing to do something about it? All those things we thought we just had to live with are now considered to be a problem?" with this mix of amazement and envy.

But, those same tools can be used by those same women. And are. To the immense shock of perpetrators who assumed that if you'd have let something slide in 1990, you're honor-bound to let it slide in 2015.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I note with amusement that I'm 52. Until next month.

[naomikritzer]

I am turning 42 later this month. So, not a huge amount younger. Some of the people I've heard expressing this sort of amazement are my age, but mostly they are at least slightly older.

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

For a long time, I've thought that a taproot of "second wave feminism" was the failure of "The Sixties" to live up to its ideals when relating to women. An archetypal dialectic.
And the wheel keeps turning. wonderful

[papersky.livejournal.com]

This. All of this. I'm fifty.

But what really made me see it was my 70 year old aunt saying that young women being harassed should be flattered. That was the consensus when she was in her twenties. Be flattered. Gah. When I was, it was "get away, be glad to be safe, don't make a fuss". It's so great that this has visibly and generationally improved.

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear Lydy,

You have to stop writing interesting posts like this. You are interfering with my ability to meet my deadlines.

This is on your head. If you flaunt your intellectual allures like that in front of normal men like me, you know how we're going to react to them. You know we can't help it.

So, yes, this is your fault. You should know better.


love (of course!), Ctein

[lydy.livejournal.com]

There is, in fact, nothing normal about you, my dear.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Do not want with sauce of not wanting! Compliment my Great Aunt Fanny!

[lydy.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I'll look into what Second Wave Feminism actually is. I feel ignorant on the topic. On the other hand, that seems pretty likely, just on its face. There are a lot of stories from women about doing the basic work of the movement, you know, printing and distributing flyers, holding down paying jobs, cleaning the bathrooms and cooking dinner, while the men in their lives sat around importantly discussing important things in important voices and giving the women no say or input into the important important things they were doing.

I did once email one of Ken Keesey's kids and ask, "So, um, who did the laundry?" I was told, "My mom, mostly."

[mplsfish.livejournal.com]

I have been trying to find words for how feminism has made my life harder. I think its this.
When I was in my 20's, when a man was a jerk to me I thought, he is a jerk. It was a problem but pretty much just my problem. Now I am seeing a systemic problem and that is more intimidating. My responsibility is much greater.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I tend to process this differently. Back in the 80s, I thought that the whole thing was entirely my problem, and I felt overwhelmed and alone. As I learn that a) the situation is structural, not just directed at me and b) there is the possibility of solidarity, I feel more empowered, less guilty and less alone. I feel less responsible for the awful things that happen, on occasion, and more able to address them because I have backup. I felt that very keenly this past weekend, when Ken Konkol was horrible and all my friends rallied. I really admire solidarity. To me, it doesn't increase one's responsibility, it decreases ones liabilities.

But different people process things differently. At the moment, I am actually a little confused about what you're saying, and if it seems like I'm jumping on you, I apologize. If you wanted to expand, I'd be very interested, in part because this is very much not my experience, as detailed above.

[mplsfish.livejournal.com]

I am also confused. When I find some clarity I will try to share it.
My more mature understanding of the issues leaves me less happy (about that, not in general)and I don't have an explanation just yet.

[ctein3.livejournal.com]

Dear Mplsfish,

I have very similar feelings, although I'm pretty sure they come from a different source (I mean, boy experience vs. girl experience? duh). Collectively I don't much like half the human race (there are individual exceptions, but they are exceptions) because there's just too much jerkiness. Men, on average, give me somewhere between a very mild (ignorable) headache and a splitting migraine.

Developing (eons ago) the awareness that the jerks were not individual problems but were in fact part of a vast unspoken social conspiracy of jerkiness in no way made me happier. It is a hugely valuable thing for me to understand. That doesn't make it enjoyable. In fact, it makes me somewhat more misanthropic (using that word very precisely) that I was prior to awareness.


pax \ Ctein
[ Please excuse any word-salad. MacSpeech in training! ]
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