lydy: (Default)
[personal profile] lydy
[personal profile] mrissa has a really lovely essay about lifeboats over at Uncanny, and you should read it.  Beware the Lifeboat - Uncanny Magazinehttps://uncannymagazine.com/article/beware-the-lifeboat/


Seventh grade was when I was first exposed to the lifeboat thought experiment.  Thirteen of us were assigned roles, and told to decide who to toss out, because the lifeboat could only hold twelve.  I do not remember what role I was assigned, but I do remember being completely unable to find a reason not to toss out the disabled twelve year old girl, which is what we eventually did.  I didn't find it all that traumatic, but it nagged at me afterwards.  

I think it must have actually bothered me a great deal more than I recognized at the time, because when I found out that the parameters of the lifeboat problem were a cheat, I felt furious and betrayed.  In real lifeboats, the parameters are not clean and hard.  A boat that is rated for ten can usually carry more, maybe many more, depending on the people.  The water is only a limiting factor if it doesn't rain, and there's no knowing if it will.  Food, too, is not a limiting factor in the way it was represented to me.  Over and above rationing, the waste from a lifeboat draws fish and birds, and lots of cast aways have used this to supplement the food on the boat.  Finally, rescue is neither certain nor predictable.  You do not know if there will ever be a rescue, nor do you know when it will be.  It could be in an hour, or a day, or never.  Everything about the problem was a cheat.  In looking at that, and the trolley problem, and the other thought experiments in this genre, my conclusion is that, whatever the intent, the effect of having people engage with the problem is not an exercise in getting them to examine their underlying ethical structures, but rather a way to force people to act unethically.  I think it desensitizes and damages our understanding of ourselves and our world, rather than exposing or exploring anything.

I do not know if this would be more informative or ethical, but I'd like to see some psychology department try this.  Set up the scenario the same way it was presented to me in seventh grade.  Give people roles, tell them to decide who to sacrifice.  Have them play it out.  When the finally decide who goes over the side, have the proctor describe the death in some reasonable amount of detail.  The goal here is not to traumatize, but to give everyone a chance to have second thoughts.  See if anyone jumps in to save the drowning person, and how the rest react.  Then have the proctor say, "As you stare at the surface of the ocean, at the space where the drowning person last rose, you hear a voice from a megaphone telling you to remain still, the ship will be there to rescue you.  After you are taken on board, cleaned and cared for, and asked how you are, and what you did while you waited for rescue."  Then, have the proctor ask each participant to re-visit their choice of sacrificing one of their own.  Ask them why they did it, if they would change their mind.  Guide them to seeing all the questions and possibilities they didn't consider when they decided on the sacrifice.  

Would this be a better framework for getting people to examine their underlying ethical structures, or is this just me still being angry 40 years later?  I am not sure.  But it would certainly be more interesting than what they put me through when I was 13, I tell you what.

Date: 2019-08-07 03:28 am (UTC)
petrea_mitchell: (Default)
From: [personal profile] petrea_mitchell
In a weird bit of synchronicity, I'm watching an anime where this same hypothetical issue was just raised (not specifically involving lifeboats, but essentially the same problem, trying to force an unethical answer) so that the hero could say no, he'll try to find a way to save everyone. It's based on a fairly popular manga, so there's one bunch of people being introduced to the idea that the false choice should be rejected...

Date: 2019-08-07 04:36 am (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Vehement agreement on this. The problem with all such thought experiments, particularly those set in exigent circumstances with strict time limits, is that the experiments present as definitive facts things which in real life would be unknowable (or, as you point out, much more fuzzy than definitive). Since the intended point of all these experiments is to use the definitive facts to force moral conclusions, to point out that the facts aren't definitive completely undercuts the intended moral argument.

However, I have to disagree with one point in mrissa's reading of "The Cold Equations." The story does not "put the moral failing on the girl alone," or at all. The story is at pains to express the opinion that nobody is blaming her for her mistake, she did not commit a failing, still less a moral one. The story's intent is to put the blame solely on the abstract cold equations themselves, and it's this perspective which makes the story, when read as intended, so striking.

That the story ignores that the real fault lies with those who implemented the cold equations into practical effect is the story's moral failing. But its failure to put the blame there doesn't mean it's putting it on the girl instead.

Date: 2019-08-08 07:14 am (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
I'm curious as to what generates such readings. The girl as extremely emotional - she's an adolescent who's just learned she's going to be killed, I should bloody well hope she'd be fucking emotional. In fact, given the circumstances she seems to me to be remarkably calm about it; any more so and the story wouldn't be believable.

You're right that I don't see the story as taking prurient pleasure in sacrificing the girl; in fact the opposite. It's a tragedy. It's sadder if an innocent girl dies than, say, a stoic adult male. If you read it the other way, I'm curious if you read all tragedies involving the deaths of young women that way, and if not, what's the difference? Does Shakespeare take prurient pleasure in sacrificing Juliet, Ophelia, Cordelia, Desdemona, for instance?

Date: 2019-08-08 07:20 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Just your asking these questions, especially concerning Thelma and Buffy, makes clearer to me what I think you're getting at. I'm guessing you're discussing instances where a work, which is not blatantly or "old school" sexist/racist/etc, still reproduces "old school" discriminatory cliches.

And if you'd said that your reaction to "The Cold Equations" was something like, "Oh no, not yet another story in which the young woman is killed; I can't deal with reading this whether or not the cliche was consciously employed," then I'd have understood immediately, and as a personal reaction this is unanswerable.

But that's not how I read the framing of the issue. You wrote of PNH's observation that "There is definitely an aspect of prurient pleasure taken in sacrificing girls in the genre," and while you didn't specifically state this was true of "Cold Equations," this is a description not of readerly reaction but of authorial intent. It's possible that Godwin (or Campbell, who seems to have been more responsible for the story's final shape) had such prurient pleasure in mind, consciously or unconsciously, but I see nothing in the story to evidence this.

This being so, I think I've gotten past my puzzlement at your statement, and we need proceed no further unless you wish to. I'll respond to your specifics at renewed request, but it need not be prefatory to the long response you contemplated. Thanks.

Date: 2019-08-07 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] quadong
Star Trek plot lines play this out also, the ones where they tell the audience that there are 27 minutes of air left, and now there are 12.3 minutes of air left, as though that were cut and dry. On the other hand, Star Trek plot lines also usually involve taking the opposite extreme in actions to what your class exercise demanded. The captain nearly always risks 10 people to save one, and I can't recall a protagonist gunning down their compatriots to conserve air either. FWIW.

Date: 2019-08-07 04:23 pm (UTC)
hrj: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hrj
Back when I was in junior high school (ca. age 13-14) I was in couple of "small enrichment classes" for social studies that engaged in a number of strategy/role-playing exercises. After a few go-rounds, they taught me to be deeply suspicious about buying in to the overt premises of such scenarios, because I discovered that not only were all the games deliberately corrupt (i.e., interactions that were presented as random and fair were actually being manipulated by the facilitator), but they were designed to lead you into acting unethically in order to teach "gotcha" lessons.

My newfound cynicism has carried over into adult life when presented with "team building" exercises that either teach entirely different lessons than the ones they purport to teach, or that simply reinforce my lack of team spirit.

Date: 2019-08-08 04:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] quadong
Jesus.

In retrospect, would "I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that it will unbuild this team" have flown?

Date: 2019-08-08 07:37 pm (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
Good lord. Yes, this is a way to bring out fundamental moral divergences, not to develop respect for varying points of view.

Had I been there, I hope I would have had the nerve to point out that the baron placed the blame for his wife's infidelity upon the young man and not upon the baroness. Not that he should have murdered either of them, of course, but there's more than one question of blame in this parable.

Date: 2019-08-09 09:18 am (UTC)
hrj: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hrj
I tend to suspect that some of my co-workers have come to unfortunate conclusions about *me* during team building exercises. But I'm very upfront about my issues. "This exercise is designed to have a specific 'win condition'. I've played this one before. If you put me in charge, we have our best chance of working together as a team to win. If you're more interested in the discussion process, go ahead, but I'm not likely to be very invested."

I've also annoyed the facilitators on occasion by responding to the question of "what have we learned from this exercise" with answers like, "Don't bother to take ownership of your process because the bosses will just change the rules of the game on the next go-round and all the process improvements you implemented will become obsolete." or "The process is designed to undermine your self-confidence and demonstrate that success is impossible. The lesson is not to get too invested in success."

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