Bright lines
Mar. 2nd, 2007 06:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lydyI just had a painful conversation.
Someone who was a speak-to acquaintance with some good will between us, and a lot of social discomfort, argued some time ago -- possibly the last pool party -- that there could be legitimate reasons for what happened at Abu Graib. After some shouting, and some later thought, although perhaps not calmer thought, I informed him that we are no longer on speaking terms.
He has just called with all the good will in the world on his part, wanting to give me valuable information. I established that he still felt that torture was, under some circumstances, acceptable and useful. I told him that if he wished to send me the information in email, that would be a kindness, but that I was now going to hang up.
He's the only person in the world that I'm not speaking to, the only person in the world where the resolve lasted past a few contacts. He's prone to depression, which makes what I did worse. He's a Viet Nam Vet, so he quite reasonably believes that he is speaking from an informed decision. I hated doing that. I'm shaking. But torture is wrong, and anyone who believes otherwise is not a good person. I told him that, too.
I have other friends who, I know from conversations that tiptoed around it, believe torture is acceptable under some circumstance or another. They haven't crossed the bright line, they haven't said that point blank. Are they less of a bad person because they haven't said it to me? Probably not. My excuse is that if they do not speak to me of it, then I do not have to judge. Am I copping out? To some extent.
If you are my friend, do not ever tell me that you think torture in any form is moral or useful for gaining intelligence. I will, in fact, stop speaking to you, no matter how uncomfortable it makes both of us. I will stop being your friend. It will hurt me, and if you are my friend, presumably it will hurt you. I am restricting this to conversations, both in voice and in photons. A blog, though, is not a conversation, and I consider it exempt. I'll geet back to you about comments in someone else's blog.
This may not be a brave or appropriate line, it is my bright line.
In the normal course of things, I would say I was sorry I was being so rigid. On this topic, I'm sorry I'm being so flexible.
Someone who was a speak-to acquaintance with some good will between us, and a lot of social discomfort, argued some time ago -- possibly the last pool party -- that there could be legitimate reasons for what happened at Abu Graib. After some shouting, and some later thought, although perhaps not calmer thought, I informed him that we are no longer on speaking terms.
He has just called with all the good will in the world on his part, wanting to give me valuable information. I established that he still felt that torture was, under some circumstances, acceptable and useful. I told him that if he wished to send me the information in email, that would be a kindness, but that I was now going to hang up.
He's the only person in the world that I'm not speaking to, the only person in the world where the resolve lasted past a few contacts. He's prone to depression, which makes what I did worse. He's a Viet Nam Vet, so he quite reasonably believes that he is speaking from an informed decision. I hated doing that. I'm shaking. But torture is wrong, and anyone who believes otherwise is not a good person. I told him that, too.
I have other friends who, I know from conversations that tiptoed around it, believe torture is acceptable under some circumstance or another. They haven't crossed the bright line, they haven't said that point blank. Are they less of a bad person because they haven't said it to me? Probably not. My excuse is that if they do not speak to me of it, then I do not have to judge. Am I copping out? To some extent.
If you are my friend, do not ever tell me that you think torture in any form is moral or useful for gaining intelligence. I will, in fact, stop speaking to you, no matter how uncomfortable it makes both of us. I will stop being your friend. It will hurt me, and if you are my friend, presumably it will hurt you. I am restricting this to conversations, both in voice and in photons. A blog, though, is not a conversation, and I consider it exempt. I'll geet back to you about comments in someone else's blog.
This may not be a brave or appropriate line, it is my bright line.
In the normal course of things, I would say I was sorry I was being so rigid. On this topic, I'm sorry I'm being so flexible.
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no subject
Date: 2007-03-03 05:01 pm (UTC)Actually, they're probably worse. They're being dishonest and hypocritical.
Speaking as someone also prone to depression (and still getting over the last "smackdown"), I'd encourage you in not feeling bad about your actions. You're not responsible for his depression (nor is he, he's responsible for what he does with it). Also since he phoned you up after you told him you didn't want to speak to him you may need to be really firm about this limit you've set. I think you did the right thing in telling him to e-mail you and then hanging up.
There are people that I don't talk to, some because it's not good for me, and some because I just don't want to.
My problem is very often I cross people off my list because they've crossed a line that they didn't know exsisted. At least you're giving people fair warning.
Take care.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-03 06:43 pm (UTC)I don't feel bad, except insofar as being mean to someone makes me feel shaky. I don't feel responsible for his depression. However, as a reasonably fragile person myself, I do attempt to avoid braking people where possible. If I knew that he were phobic about the color red, I'd probably avoid wearing red if I knew he was going to be around. Black looks quite as ravishing on me as red. 8-)
no subject
Date: 2007-03-03 10:05 pm (UTC)That makes sense. Sorry that I misinterpreted what you wrote.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-04 09:58 am (UTC)OTOH, I once found out from a third party that someone wasn't speaking to me, which was news (and a couple of years old, at that) to me. It was especially interesting as we'd exchanged politenesses once or twice at parties since he'd instituted that policy -- and when I phoned, we had a conversation. Actually, it was a mutual breakup, and I'd pretty much given up on talking to him about anything of substance. Ah, people.
All hail fair warning! When one has such lines, it's good to know it yourself. It can be even better to tell your friends.