Is the sky blue? Was Armstrong the first man on the moon?

[lydy]

Do I really live in a world where US troops invaded an Iranian embassy and took hostages? (Calling them prisoners doesn't make it sound one whit better.) Was this only possible because Ted Koppel is no longer anchoring Nightline?

(The discussion may now dissolve into a muck of detail about embassies vs. consulates vs. who knew what and when they knew it, why the Kurds didn't think it was a good idea, and most of all, how this Doesn't Matter at All in the grand scheme of things. Knock yourselves out. But anyone who isn't at least a little alarmed by the ironic symmetry has no sense of poetry.)

Comments

[bibliofile.livejournal.com]

Q #1: Alas, yes.

Hmm, could this be related to the bombing of a US embassy in Greece? Someone out there has seen the irony, then.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

You know, when they said that irony was dead when Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize, I didn't think that they meant literally.

[mplsvala.livejournal.com]

News to me. I tried looking for a news story on this and couldn't find one. Any idea where to look?

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Try this (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/12/world/middleeast/12raid.html?hp&ex=1168664400&en=489150d45b330eff&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

[mplsvala.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Isn't it funny, with the liberally biased media and all, how hard it can be to find news that could be condsidered impeachment evidence? Hmmmm. Couldn't this be viewed as an act of war against Iran? These weren't random terrorists storming the place. It's hard to get a clearer case of people acting on the official behalf of the government than soldiers. I suppose we're lucky they didn't shoot the Iranian military advisors (to the Shiites) or ship them off for questioning. We will indeed be lucky to get out of this without nuking Iran.

Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

Beware of news organization agendas: this wasn't an embassy or consulate. It was an "office of relations" not covered by diplomatic immunity. And distributing improvised explosive devices to terrorists will get any diplomat anywhere arrested/detained/what-have-you; it's what happens next that's different for criminals who happen to be diplomats.

As far as I can tell the ones just arrested are not covered by immunity; if they are they will be PNG'd like the two who were captured last month in Bagdhad.

And I assume that you're joking about Ted Koppel. Who cares what someone with a sneer and a bad wig thinks about the news?

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

“distributing improvised explosive devices to terrorists will get any diplomat anywhere arrested/detained/what-have-you”?
Tell Orolando Letelier. Or his widow.
For some time, there has been a steady trickle of data suggesting an upcoming invasion of Iran. No, this is by no means conclusive, but by now it has been amply demonstrated that nothing is beyond our fake-cowboy fake-President.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

If we're very lucky, an invasion of Iran won't be necessary. I doubt we'll be that lucky.

And with sufficient luck, when the invasion proves necessary, it will in fact happen. I expect the issue to be revolved one way or the other within twelve to twenty-four months.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

And if we're really, really, really lucky, the United States WON'T make matters worse in the long run with some ham-handed short-term "solution" for the short run.
The way it has for the last half-century.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[lydy.livejournal.com]

You're _not_ one of the people I thought would fail to appreciate the bizarre irony of it all. Even in the Middle East (especially in the Middle East?) there are ironies that transcend the political immediacies.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Beware of news organization agendas: this wasn't an embassy or consulate.

Like I said, knock yourself out.

And I assume that you're joking about Ted Koppel.

You do remember how Nightline started, don't you?

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it started with Sam Donalson, who didn't sneer as much.

I find it slightly amazing how a bust of a bunch of weapons dealers gets this kind of spin.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it started with Sam Donalson, who didn't sneer as much.

Not exactly, no. It started as an update on the Iranian Hostage Crisis. Per Wikipedia, the first anchor was Frank Reynolds, but it's Koppel everyone remembers. Heck, you should be fond of Nightline, since it was the primary cause of Jimmie Carter's defeat.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

At the time, I didn't like it when Jimmy Carter was being beat up for the crime of being a Democratic president who wasn't a Kennedy.

Now, of course, he's on the Moslem payroll and utterly impossible.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Now, of course, he's on the Moslem payroll and utterly impossible.

I really wasn't going to do this, but you've totally pissed me off.

Do you have any hard evidence of money flowing from a Moslem group that supports terrorism (not a legitimate Moslem government, mind) to Jimmy Carter? I do not believe that you do.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite certain how "terrorism" got mixed into this discussion.

What I said was that Carter is taking money from Moslems; left unstated was that helps explain his latest excursion into screwing up the Middle East, which was all over the news for the past two weeks.

As you may have read, a group of board members from his Carter Center resigned en masse last week in protest over Carter's book. At least one board member stated that to their own personal knowledge — having been in the room at the time — Carter was inventing history to support his contentions. All the people who resigned found Carter's book so utterly repugnant that it was time to leave his foundation.

Carter is accepting millions in acknowledged money from Moslem governments and foundations; the resigning board members asked that his come clean on all his sources of money.

Given the long history of official, state-supported terrorism and state-supported antisemitism by Moslem governments, I don't quite see what distinction you're attempting to draw. They paid Carter; Carter's book pays them back.

Re: Not an Embassy or Consulate

[marsgov.livejournal.com]

And what the heck are you doing up at 2AM, anyway? I get up in the mornings at 4AM...

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Would you source this? I must read more. What a strange and wonderful thing.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Seems like Bush is claiming a technicality: it was not a diplomatic building, it was just being used as such.

B

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Heh. The application to become a diplomatic building had already been filed, it was flying the Iranian flag, it was doing the functions of a consulate, both the Kurdish local government and the Iraqi national government considered it to be an Iranian diplomatic building, but that's all just a technicality. No autopsy, no foul, even though our strongest allies in the region drew weapons and tried to stop us.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I know, I know. But that's the government's story. And you can read marsgov parroting it above. It's all a conspiracy by the media to make America look bad, you know.

B

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Do you read Informed Comment at all? Blog by Juan Cole, who really does know what he's talking about, serious expert on the area. (When talking about the various factions in Iraq, managed to greatly confuse me by tracing out six -- I have to go read that article again. It made considerably more sense than a simple Shia'a Sunni split, but not something I could get on a casual single reading.) Definitely worth reading. His comments on the political implications of the raid are sensible and useful.

It baffles me how some of my friends, good friends like marsgov, or even sometimes wise friends like apostle_of_eris can have pre-programmed reactions to any issue that touches on Israel. Usually, they have more nuanced views. I guess we all have our buttons. Don't even try talking to me about compromises on abortion. :-)

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Of course I read Juan Cole, all the time.

This is just nutty. The technicality about whether the building was, or was not, officially a consulate is completely besides the point. The in-country government can always find an excuse to raid a consulate. The point is that we are all better off in the world if consulates are secure places for diplomacy.

Shame on Bush for dragging us back 600 years.

B