Flirting

[lydy]

What the the Readercon flap and all that, I've been thinking a fair amount about sexual harassment, social interactions, and so on. John Scalzi has had several very sensible things to say about how to interact with people, how not to be a creep, and so on. Many commenters have have useful things to say, too. One of the things that's been said several times, though, is roughly, "Don't flirt with someone unless they flirt with you." Which leads me to immediately think, "But, then, no one would ever flirt." Which would be, in my opinion, a damn shame. I like flirting. I think it can be a world of fun.

Which leads me to a revelation. Flirting is not one of those things that socially inept people should really attempt. Please let me be clear: I am talking about flirting, that ever-so-slightly salacious banter that people who are attracted to each other indulge in in social settings. I am not talking about any of the other multitudinous ways that people indicate to each other that there is a sexual attraction and that they might be interested in doing something about it. Here's a crucial piece of information that some people appear to be lacking: flirting is not the only way, or even always the best way, to get laid.

Flirting is, in fact, a high-risk, complex social interaction. It is, often, about gaming the system. It is about using various "acceptable" interactions to imply "unacceptable" interactions. Please note the scare quotes. I think sexual behavior is perfectly ok. Really. But flirting is about playing a game. If you are not skilled enough at this game to tell whether or not the target of your flirting is having fun, and is at least interested enough in the game to play it with you, you are not good enough at it to play. Really. Being able to detect interest, the level of interest, and maintain the intensity at a level which pleases both of you, and does not creep either of you out, is difficult, and part of the fucking point.

There is nothing wrong with either a) not wanting to play this game, or b) not being very good at it. It's a style of social eptness which has, at best, a very limited utility. And you run the very real risk of being mistaken as an operator, or a creeper. I did mention that it was a high-stakes game, right? Being female, it's much easier for me, since in the game, it's pretty acceptable for me to simply accept or reject gambits. I can, if I want, never increase the intensity of the situation, always just accepting or rejecting further intimacies. Typically, the guy will up the ante as things go along. Look, I didn't say this was a unbiased, politically correct game. It's gendered as hell. It's unfair. It's difficult. Under the right circumstances, with the right partner, it can be fun. These days, you can also play with subverting the paradigm. Women's options have become more varied, all to the good. But, fundamentally, this is a game based on mainstream, conventional mores, and ways to subvert them.

But that high-risk thing I was talking about? Really. Played badly, you end up being a harasser, a stalker, a predator. Because in the end, the thing that is _really important_ is not the game, but the other person. You are playing this game with a _person_. Someone with past, present, connections, context, old scars, preferences, needs, desires, and who _is_not_you_. The whole evil "pick up artist" thing entirely defines the interaction as a competition. Flirting, when it's fun, is not competition, it's co-operation. Which means respecting other people's boundaries, figuring out what's going on, and being pretty clear. Which sounds like the opposite of flirting, which thrives on ambiguity. Which is why this is tough. Because you need both: clarity and ambiguity.

Comments

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I think some people think that flirting is one of the necessary steps in a linear metaphor for sexuality.

I think some people think there are way more necessary steps than there actually are, and also skip some of the actually-necessary steps. As in: you and the other person get to pick which steps you want to do together! But you have to actually do that part. Together, consensually. Oops, that's the part often missing.

[davidschroth.livejournal.com]

Thanks for a very nice post on a "game" I am totally crap at.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I do hope I made it perfectly clear that there is nothing at all meritorious about being a good flirt. It's just a game, like chess or Cosari. I am total crap at chess. I can't understand it, I can't play it well, and I don't enjoy it. So, you know, I don't play. If I was in a social environment where the only thing people did was play chess, I would find a new social environment. Not that there's anything bad about playing chess. It's just that my brain isn't wired that way. Additionally, there are people I like flirting with that I don't really want to spend a lot of time with otherwise. They're rather good at that game, but not at much else. Which is fine. And there are a lot of people that I like to spend time with who don't flirt, or don't want to flirt with me. People are multi-varied and interesting. Which makes it more fun.

What's really toxic, I think, is the idea that you _have_ to flirt. Ick and likewise yuck. Flirting becomes noxious when it becomes mandatory.

[elisem.livejournal.com]

That was very interesting. Thank you for writing it. If you feel like saying more, I'd like to read it, because it's a glimpse of a game I don't know much about, but which I see go on around me, so it's an item of curiosity. It's obvious that there's a bunch of particular art involved, when people do it well.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

You know, I was going to say, "For me, flirting works like this..." but then I realized that, like most human sexual behavior, it is rarely just one thing. Sex is for comfort and procreation and physical release and emotional bonding and lots and lots of other things, depending on participants and context and timing and... like that.

One of the things that flirting can be is a game of "Let me prove to you how carefully I can pay attention to you." By picking up cues, responding to things said and unsaid, body language, hints, and so on, one of the things you are saying is, "I am paying attention to you and the things you are telling me." If your partner is aggressive when you indicate that you are interested, and backs off when you indicate that you are not, when they respond to you with interest, that's a real high. The sense of being absolutely in focus, the center of what's going on, is terribly attractive. Because sex is in the mix, it's a high-stakes game. The chance of looking like a damn fool, or worse, crossing a boundary you weren't expecting and getting shut down completely, is heightened. There's definitely an adrenalin piece to it. It's kind of like a test, except that it's a test you want the other person to pass. You want to get all their signals, understand them correctly, and respond to them, and send out your own, in such a way that you are both having fun. There's a kind of a rule book, but not exactly, and it's definitely a game where part of the challenge is figuring out which rules you can break now and which you can't. At it's all pretty much predicated on our extremely complex, and fundamentally broken set of societal rules about who can have sex with whom when. Who can touch whom and how. And so on.

There's also... hmm. You know how, in a well-run BDSM scene, where everything is carefully negotiated ahead of time, there is still the element of pushing the boundary. Never enough to violate the agreement, never ever past the bounds of consent, but there's certainly often (not always) an element of pushing the bottom just a little bit farther than they were expecting? And how, if you do it just right, and you get to the place which is clearly within the comfort zone and yet clearly outside it as well, it's just exactly right? Flirting can be like that.

I have very much enjoyed flirting in circumstances where I knew exactly what was going to happen. Either it was a total no-go, but we were having fun, or an absolute certainty, but we were playing and this was a form of foreplay. But there's also the flirting where I don't really know. I haven't decided for sure that I won't, but I'm kind of looking for a good reason to actually go farther with this person...kiss, sex, whatever. And that's when the paying attention thing really, really matters. Because if I don't know if I want to, one of the things I'm trying to find out is if my partner is, you know, responsive. Are we in this together, or is he (she) playing their own game and I'm just a token. For me, when flirting works, I get a sense that the person is paying attention. Not necessarily to me as a person, complex and whole, and they want to be my friend for life. Although, sometimes, you can establish that, too. But for a casual hook-up, that's not an absolute necessity. But what is absolutely necessary is that they can identify and respect boundaries, but are not completely passive. They can quest and question and tease and try, without violating me. There are many ways to establish that kind of information. But flirtation is one way, very probably not the best one. And since it is, essentially, a game, it is highly susceptible to being, well, gamed.

[nipernaadiagain.livejournal.com]

Wow!

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Thank you especially for writing this, because with that context it finally makes sense and I understand what people are getting out of it.

This is a great post.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Another thought:

Very probably, one of the reasons I like flirting is because I grew up in a sexually repressive sub-culture, and this plays with paradigms I'm deeply familiar with. I'm not saying that this is the reason other people like to flirt. Gods know, people do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. But I grew up with this rule book, and I still get a thrill out of bending and breaking the rules, messing with the paradigm, and generally fucking around with it. Other people respond to the fundamentally broken rule-set by following them slavishly, or flagrantly disregarding them, or any of another set of things. Humans. It's like somebody gave them free will or something.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

I think being good at flirting necessarily means being aware if you're making someone uncomfortable in your flirtations. Getting nervous or flustered is no fun, but I'd rather experience that than make someone uncomfortable.

In my experience (and I'm a decent flirt) quality flirting thrives on all parties involved playing the unspoken potential, or even just a pretend potential that there's a romantic and/or physical interest. There's banter around that concept, and both parties enjoy playing with it. Actual intent should be a known thing to avoid miscommunication *unless* all parties involved are secure enough to be OK with geting something other than they expected, and enjoy that possibility.

So in my interpretation, flirting involves self awareness, self confidence, and empathy, as well as being OK with it not necessarily leading to something more.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

I totally agree.

When it comes down to brass tacks, I tend to revert to absolute plain English. "Ok, so it's sex post-AIDS. I'd rather blush for three minutes and get this out of the way rather than have misunderstandings a little bit later when things get hectic. This is my current set of sexual contacts. This is what I prefer for contraception/protection. How about you?" If, you know, the perspective partner is too flustered to cope at this point, well, no harm no foul. Also, no sex. But while flirtation may be grand fun, some of those gritty details need to be out in the open. It also has the added advantage of making it perfectly clear that I am saying yes, now. I'd really rather my partner not be in any doubt about that, either. As far as I'm concerned, the time for tentativeness is before, not after, you've taken your clothes off.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

This is a really good, meaty post, and I'm going to come back to it. There are things I want to find words for, in terms of flirting in the "we know it's never going to go any farther than these words, because of context, but it's fun," and in the "we may be feeling things out between us, with lots of room to back off" sense.

[nipernaadiagain.livejournal.com]

Thank you for a thoughtprovoking post!

Of course, for a socially inept person, it is also a sad post about a game this person can never play, no matter how much one wants to.

Sometimes I think that I love interacting with foreigners so much due to my social ineptness. Because the foreigners tend to be so much more forgiving: "She is NOT a social moron! her fumbling is just a case of cultural differences - in her own culture she is surely just as socailly developed person like everyone else!"

It makes me so angry and frustrated, knowing that flirting is something that I will never experience in my life, as I am not good enough, I am damaged goods.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

And Lydy said she's never going to be able to play chess.

I'm never going to be able to dance, or play sports.

It's just a thing, there are other things, enjoy doing those and let this one go.

[lydy.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear. I am so sorry. I really didn't mean to make you feel inadequate in any way.

Flirting is just a game. It is associated with much higher status than it should be. I can't play chess. There have been situations in my life where that was a social drawback. It made things not fun for me. I had to find environments in which being able to play chess was not important. I do like to play bridge. I am just very bad at it. Which means that I don't play it very often, and only with people who are very patient, know I don't remember all the rules very well, and are willing to explain the difficult bits to me. Perhaps even more like flirting: I can't dance. It is an important social thing that lots of people do, which has a significant sexual undertone. I have two left feet, no sense of rhythm, and am clumsy and graceless. On very rare occasions, usually when I'm drunk, I can be lured onto the dance floor. Even then, I make no attempt to dance _with_ someone. I can't catch their cues, can't interact. I can move somewhat spastically to the music and have an ok time, especially if I don't think anyone is watching. There are a number of social situations which make that considerably less than ideal. And you know, I have tried to learn to dance. But I do not have that skill. So, I do the things necessary to compensate for it.

If you really want to flirt, you should try to find flirting partners who are like my bridge partners, people who are aware of your skill level, and willing to work with you on that basis. But there's an important question of why you would want to.

Flirting is not the only way to get laid. Really, honestly, mostly I don't get laid by flirting. Usually, I get laid by asking blunt questions like, "My place or yours, and do you have condoms on you?" This works pretty well, actually. And flirting is very much not the only way to make a good human connection. There are lots of arguments for how it can interfere with making good human connections. I would argue that it is perfectly possible to make an important emotional connection that way, but you know, people do lots and lots of different things.

But you are not a damaged person, at least, not any more damaged than most people in the world. Nobody gets out of this alive, and nobody gets out of this without scars. There are things we can't do. There are things we can. What we'd like to be able to do and what we can do are rarely matching sets.

I'm kind of ignoring a problem I did allude to earlier, though. Flirting is a high-status game. People who can do it are often considered to be "better" than other people. I don't know what to tell you about that. The same rule-set which flirting is designed around gaming with is the rule set that makes flirting a high-status skill. It shouldn't be. The rule-set is brain dead and broken. For various reasons, I enjoy playing with it. But don't privilege it, it has all the privilege it needs. What's really important is finding ways to make connections with other people, finding ways to have authentic relationships, have fun, and be real. Maybe this sounds like I'm saying you should settle for spinach instead of ice cream. I don't mean to do that. But I guess I did mean to say that it is easy to go from trying to flirt into being an asshole, and that you should assess your skill level and determine whether or not you are making a mistake and failing. Not flirting does not make you a bad person, or less than a person. Having so little care for other people that your attempts to flirt are, in fact, creepy harassment, that makes you a bad person.

If I had one thing I actually had to say, it would be "Pay attention to the other person." Really, if you can do that, everything else ends up being gravy.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I think the fundamental problem with nerds/geeks/whatever and flirting is that flirting requires ambiguity and innuendo -- and nerds/geeks/whatever are terrible at that.

There are a bunch of reasons why flirting requires those things, but that's a much longer discussion.

B

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Our younger daughter has been told more than once that she flirts a lot. But I have observed her over the years, and as far as I can see, the behavior so characterized is directed at both males and females--and she is far along on the "straight" end of the spectrum. (Like me, she has no negative feeling about a romantic/sexual relationship with a woman, but has never experienced any such attraction.) Her behavior does sometimes look superficially like classical flirting, but it isn't. I think the same may be true of you.

[animaltofriends.livejournal.com]

This makes me sick to my stomach. *bleh*

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

On certain rare occasions I have said, "Not now, and not later, either. I get it. And it won't change until you say it's changed, and that's pretty unlikely. But I like flirting with you. With all that clearly understood, may I, from time to time, continue?"
And been told ok.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I missed this when you wrote it--I must have been in a "not reading much LJ phase." Wow, great post and some great comments.

The last time I flirted with anyone was pre-AIDS era, and I have no idea whether I was ever any good at it. Referencing minnehaha B's comment above: I am very comfortable with ambiguity, but also very literal-minded. In my high-school and college days, there were guys I flirted with and thought were interested in me, but they never made a move. OTOH, at my 45-year high school reunion I found out that someone had a crush on me and I never suspected it: "Smart women scare me," he said. But then when I was single again at 30, I found that I was easily able to tell when someone was interested. And my "flirting" with the man I have now been with for 33 years consisted of mostly intellectual conversation, followed by my offering him a back rub (something that I did a lot of at that time, on a friendly basis). The rest is history.

[lcohen]

i think of flirting as indicating an interest in a person without committing to what the nature of that interest is, which allows for "flirting without intent." for an easy example, gay men flirt with me all the time and when i was a lesbian, i still flirted with men, though i was also out as a lesbian so that there wouldn't be hurt feelings and misunderstandings. but who doesn't like for someone to make them feel interesting and attractive, even if the nature of the attractiveness isn't going to lead to sex?